WEBVTT 2 00:00:04.687 --> 00:00:15.573 COUNSEL. (APPEARANCES TENDERED). CHIEF JUSTICE RABNER: GOOD AFTERNOON AND 3 00:00:15.573 --> 00:00:22.361 WELCOME I WANT TO REMIND COUNSEL OR I'LL SAY THANK YOU TO COUNSEL TO LIMIT THE THE ONE 4 00:00:22.361 --> 00:00:27.680 QUESTION IF FRONT OF THE COURT ON CERTIFICATION. THE TRP TAGS OF LOCAL TELEPHONE EXCHANGE. 5 00:00:27.680 --> 00:00:40.731 MS. MANTELL. OF. NATALIE H. MANTELL: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR RNGS MAY IT 6 00:00:40.731 --> 00:00:44.780 PLEASE THE COURT. MAY I RESERVE 3 MINUTES FOR REBUTTAL. CHIEF JUSTICE RABNER: 7 00:00:44.780 --> 00:00:49.273 IF YOU CAN TRY TO COPE KROR VOICE UP. NATALIE H. MANTELL: WILL DO. ALTHOUGH 8 00:00:49.273 --> 00:00:55.508 THE APPELLATE DIVISION GOT A LOT RIGHT, IT ERRED IN INTERPRETING THE TERM LOCAL TELEPHONE 9 00:00:55.508 --> 00:01:02.657 HAD N.J.S.A. 54:4-1, IN A WAY THAT IS AT ODDS OF WITH THE PLAIN LANGUAGE OF THE STATUTE 10 00:01:02.657 --> 00:01:09.594 WHICH IS KNOWN ATS BUSINESS PERSONAL PROPERTY TAX OR VP P T. AND IT IS AT LODZ WITH 11 00:01:09.594 --> 00:01:15.160 THE LEGISLATIVE INTENT. THE B P P T WAS AM MENTD IN 1997 TO ROW VICE THE 12 00:01:15.160 --> 00:01:19.518 TABSES SCHEME ON 3 LOCAL TELL XHUN OCCASIONS CARRY YERTS, DURING THE ONDPOEING TRANSITION 13 00:01:19.518 --> 00:01:25.851 TO A COMPETITIVE MARKET. FOLLOWING THE BREAKUP OF AT&T, THE DIVESTITURE OF THE BABY BELLS 14 00:01:25.851 --> 00:01:30.654 INCLUDING NEW JERSEY BELL WHICH NOW VERY RYE SON AND THE FELD RUL TELL COMMUNE KATHSS 15 00:01:30.654 --> 00:01:37.875 ASHTH OF 1996. THE B P P T DOES SEVERAL THING, IMPORTANTLY IT RK NIETDZ IN THE VERY 1ST 16 00:01:37.875 --> 00:01:41.991 SENTENCE THAT CERTAIN PERSON UNTIL PROPERTY CAN BE EXCLUDED FROM OPERATION OF THIS CHAPTER. 17 00:01:41.991 --> 00:01:48.333 THAT'S DISPIKTS AN AXE EM SHUN WHICH IS NOT AT ISSUE HERE. THE ALSOS SPECIFIES 18 00:01:48.333 --> 00:01:54.029 HOW THE TAX OCHTS THE SRN PERSONAL PROPERTY YOUFD IN THE BUSINESS OF LOCAL EX CHAFRM TELEPHONE 19 00:01:54.029 --> 00:01:59.577 COMPANIES THAT WERE SUBJECT TO THE GROETS RECEIPTS AND TRAN CHIES TAX AS OF APRIL 1, 20 00:01:59.577 --> 00:02:06.156 1997, WHICH IS UNDISPUTED THAT VER ROY SON WAS AND THIS IS KEY, THE DEFINES LOCAL EX CHAFRM 21 00:02:06.156 --> 00:02:12.043 TELEPHONE COMPANY AS TL COMMUNICATION CARRIER PROVIDING DIAL TONE AND ACCESS TO 51 PERCENT 22 00:02:12.043 --> 00:02:17.670 OF THE LOCAL TELEPHONE EX CHAFRMG. SO IF A LOCAL TELECOMMUNICATIONS CARRIER IS NOT PROVIDING 23 00:02:17.670 --> 00:02:22.575 DIAL TONE AND ACCESS TO 51 PERCENT OF A LOCAL TELEPHONE EX CHAFRM RGS THEN THE TAX DOES 24 00:02:22.575 --> 00:02:26.425 NOT APPLY. BUT IT DOESN'T DEFINE WHAT COULDN'T STOUTS A LOCAL TELEPHONE 25 00:02:26.425 --> 00:02:31.325 EX CHAFRM WHICH IS WHY WE'RE HERE. SO WHAT DID THE LEGISLATURE MEAN WHIT SAID LOCAL 26 00:02:31.325 --> 00:02:37.030 TELEPHONE EX CHAFRM? VERIZON, THE LEADING LOCAL TELEPHONE PRO VOITD ISN'T NEW JERSEY AND 27 00:02:37.030 --> 00:02:43.488 THE INDUSTRY AS A WHOLE HAVE DWIEPD THAT TERM THE SAME WAY VER VERIZON DOES HERE. THAT 28 00:02:43.488 --> 00:02:50.232 DEFINITION IS THE ARRAY OF CUSTOMERS SERVED BY THE N P NXX CODES ASSOCIATE WITH THE 29 00:02:50.232 --> 00:02:56.731 PARTICULAR RATE SEN, NPA/NXX COATS RAILROAD REALLY CARRY CODE AND EX CHACHL IN A TELEPHONE 30 00:02:56.731 --> 00:03:02.080 NUMBER WHICH WE'RE ALL VERY FAMILIAR WITH. VERIZON HAS KIFRT AL USED THAT DEFINITION 31 00:03:02.080 --> 00:03:06.684 TO CALCULATE ITS MARKET SHARE WITHIN A LOCAL TELEPHONE EXCHANGE, BOTH WHIT HAD MORE THAN 32 00:03:06.684 --> 00:03:12.169 51 PERCENT OF THE MARKET SHARE AND WHIT NO MG ERR DID. THAT'S THE WAY VERIZON HAS DONE 33 00:03:12.169 --> 00:03:16.699 IT FROM THE BEGINNING. IT YOU'VE THE INFORMATION VIEBL TO IT AND ACTED MORE THAN REASONABLY 34 00:03:16.699 --> 00:03:22.088 IN THE ABSENCE OF ANY REGULATIONS SPECIFYING HOW THIS CALCULATION SHOULD BE MADE. AND 35 00:03:22.088 --> 00:03:28.567 NOBODY QUESTIONED THAT CALCULATION THE UNTIL VERIZON HAD LESS THAN 51 PERCENT. 36 00:03:28.567 --> 00:03:32.908 VERIZON DEFINITION IS CONSISTENT WITH LAW AND STATUTORY CONSTRUCTION PRINCIPLES. IT'S 37 00:03:32.908 --> 00:03:38.217 THE SAME DEFINITION YOUFD IN THE NEW JERSEY ADMINISTRATIVE CODE AND BY THE U.S. SUPREME 38 00:03:38.217 --> 00:03:44.087 COURT P OTHER STATES T LEGISLATURE INCORPORATED THAT TERM OF ART INTO THE B P P T. BUT 39 00:03:44.087 --> 00:03:48.887 THE APPELLATE DIVISION IGNORED THE LEGISLATURE'S USE OF INDUSTRY TERMINOLOGY AND EVEN 40 00:03:48.887 --> 00:03:55.463 SAID THAT THE LEGISLATURE WOULD NOT HAVE UNDERSTOOD THAT TERM, FWHULT IS CONTRARY TO 41 00:03:55.463 --> 00:04:01.158 BASIC CANNONS OF CONSTRUCTION AND NUMBER CORRECTED. HELP WELL CLAIMS 42 00:04:01.158 --> 00:04:05.924 THAT MAPS DEFINE THE EX CHAFRN RNS BUT JUST BECAUSE THERE'S A GEOGRAPHICAL COMPONENT TO 43 00:04:05.924 --> 00:04:12.218 A LOCAL TELEPHONE EX CHAFRMG DID NOT MEAN THAT GEOGRAPHY DRIVES THE ANALYSIS MUCH THE 44 00:04:12.218 --> 00:04:17.430 LOCATION OF CUSTOMERS WITH THE SAME AREA CODE AND EX CHAFRM TIED TO A PARTICULAR RATE CENTER 45 00:04:17.430 --> 00:04:25.915 DRIVES WHAT THE MAP LOOKS LIEKS. THE MAP IS THE RESULT, NOT THE CAUSE. THE AREA CODE 46 00:04:25.915 --> 00:04:33.547 AND EX CHAFRMG CAN BE DEPICTED AS HAVING GEOGRAPHICAL BOUNDARIES, BUT THEY DON'T 47 00:04:33.547 --> 00:04:39.335 RECALL THE ANSWER. AFTER DERG LAGS, THE CUSTOMERS WITH THE CERTAIN AREA CODE 48 00:04:39.335 --> 00:04:45.205 AND EXCHANGE WERE THE CLUSTERED. SORRY, BEFORE DOUGH REGULATION, THEY WERE CLUSTERED. 49 00:04:45.205 --> 00:04:50.404 AFTER DEREGULATION, THEY WERE NO LONGER CLUSTERED, BUT THE DEFINITION OF LOCAL 50 00:04:50.404 --> 00:04:58.553 TELEPHONE EX CHAFRMG, THE NPA/NXX CODES TIED TO THE LOCAL RATE CENTER DID NOT CHAFRMG K. 51 00:04:58.553 --> 00:05:03.347 THE APPELLATE DIVISION'S ROIRT TO YOUS A MAP FROM 1974 TO DEFINE A LOCAL 52 00:05:03.347 --> 00:05:09.666 TELEPHONE EX CHAFRMG TODAY IGNORES THE LEGISLATURE'S USE OF INDUSTRY TERMINOLOGY OF 53 00:05:09.666 --> 00:05:15.748 THWARTS THE INTENT TO ENCOURAGE THE KET NIGS THE LOCAL TELEPHONE MARKET BY ELIMINATING 54 00:05:15.748 --> 00:05:23.169 THE TAX ONCE COMPETITION EXISTS, VERIZON ASKS ADOPT VERIZON'S INTERPRETATION OF LOCAL 55 00:05:23.169 --> 00:05:28.609 ENGS CHAM RGS ENTER JUDGMENT IN ITS FAVOR AND DIRECT THE MRT DIVISION T PUB MISH THAT 56 00:05:28.609 --> 00:05:34.376 PORTION OF ITS OPINION HOLDING THAT THE STATUTE AP EMPLOYS ANNUALLY. THAT 57 00:05:34.376 --> 00:05:39.246 CONCLUDE MY OPENING I'M HAPPY TO ANTS ANY QUESTIONS THE COURT MAY HAVE. 58 00:05:39.246 --> 00:05:42.239 CHIEF JUSTICE RABNER: SO IT'S A TERM OF ART WE SHOULD LOOK AT THE TECHNICAL MEEPING OF THE 59 00:05:42.239 --> 00:05:46.788 PHRASE AT THE TIME OF THE LEGISLATION WAS ENACT, CORRECT? P. NATALIE H. MANTELL: 60 00:05:46.788 --> 00:05:52.091 YES. CHIEF JUSTICE RABNER: WHAT DOES TARIFF A-5 DO IN TERMS OF INFORMING 61 00:05:52.091 --> 00:05:55.469 THE MEEPG OF THE PHRASE. NATALIE H. MANTELL: YOUR HONOR, BOTH THE TARIFF 62 00:05:55.469 --> 00:06:02.897 THAT WAS IN EFFECT IN 1997 AS WELL AS THE PRODUCT GUIDE THAT EXISTS NOW DEFINES EXCHANGE 63 00:06:02.897 --> 00:06:11.914 AS A UNIT THAT WAS CREATED FOR THE PURPOSE OF, LET ME QUOTE IT ACTUAL,' UNIT ESTABLISHED 64 00:06:11.914 --> 00:06:17.139 BY VERIZON FOR THE ADMINISTRATION OF COMMUNICATION SERVICE WHICH USUALLY EM 65 00:06:17.139 --> 00:06:21.987 BRATSDZ A CITY, TOWN OR VIL HITCH AND THE EN VOIRNING AND CONSISTS OF ONE OR MORE CENTRAL 66 00:06:21.987 --> 00:06:27.535 AUFTSS WHICH MAY BE LOCATED WITHIN OR WITHOUT THE BOUN DWREE DEGREES OF THE EX CHAFRM, 67 00:06:27.535 --> 00:06:35.024 BOW THE PRODUCT AND TAR GIVE, THE SAME WAP VERIZON DOES HERE, REFERENCE TO THE P N A N 68 00:06:35.024 --> 00:06:40.244 XX CODES AND THE AREN'T EXCHANGE. JUSTICE WAINER APTER: IT DOES NOT AND CLOUD 69 00:06:40.244 --> 00:06:43.435 THOSE WORDS. NATALIE H. MANTELL: IT DOES NOT INCLUDE THOSE WORD BUT THE 70 00:06:43.435 --> 00:06:49.595 UNIT THAT IT REFERS TO IS THE NPA/NXX CODES, THE YOUNT IS NOT A MAP AND IT ALSO BEARS 71 00:06:49.595 --> 00:06:53.651 NOTING THAT. JUSTICE WAINER APTER: THE DEFINITION IS THE UNIT ESTABLISH 72 00:06:53.651 --> 00:07:01.014 BD BY VERIZON THAT MEANS ONE CODE? NATALIE H. MANTELL: NO, IT IS THE SPECIFIC 73 00:07:01.014 --> 00:07:07.365 CODES THAT ARE TIED TO THE RATE CENTER. SO THE, IT ALSO, THIS IS WHAT I WAS ABOUT TO 74 00:07:07.365 --> 00:07:11.139 SAY, YOUR HONOR, WHICH I BELIEVE AVENSS YOUR QUESTION, THE NEW JERSEY ADMINISTRATIVE CODE 75 00:07:11.139 --> 00:07:17.804 LTS DEFINES EXCHANGE BY REFERENCE TO THE NXX CODE, IT SPECIFICALLY SAYS THE NXX CODE 76 00:07:17.804 --> 00:07:24.183 DENOTES THE EXCHANGE AREA WITHIN AN AREA CODE. SO THE NEW JERSEY ADMINISTRATIVE CODE, 77 00:07:24.183 --> 00:07:27.913 BUT -- JUSTICE WAINER APTER: THAT DOESN'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE NXX CODE, 78 00:07:27.913 --> 00:07:33.644 THE EGS CHANGE AREA WITHIN AN AREA CODE COULD ALSO BE A GEOGRAPHIC AREA? 79 00:07:33.644 --> 00:07:37.577 NATALIE H. MANTELL: NO, YOUR HONOR, THE ADMINISTRATIVE SAYS THE NXX CODE DENOTES THE 80 00:07:37.577 --> 00:07:44.188 AREA CODE -- SORRY, LET ME BACK UP. THE NXX CODE DENOTES THE EX CHAMG AREA WITHIN AN AREA 81 00:07:44.188 --> 00:07:50.948 CODE. SO AGAIN THE ADMINISTRATIVE CODE IS TYING THE GEOGRAPHIC AREA TO THE NXX CODE. 82 00:07:50.948 --> 00:07:55.490 CHIEF JUSTICE RABNER: YOUR TARIFF AND THE PRODUCT GUIDE EX STREGS THE SAY 83 00:07:55.490 --> 00:08:00.193 THE TERRITORIAL BOUNDARIES OF THE EXCHANGE AREAS ARE WHAT ARE DEPICTED IN EACH OF THESE. 84 00:08:00.193 --> 00:08:04.443 NATALIE H. MANTELL: YOUR HONOR, SDILT SAY THAT, AND THE THE PRODUCT GUIDE 85 00:08:04.443 --> 00:08:09.442 IS MERELY A CARRY-OVER FROM THE TARIFF WHICH WAS A GEOGRAPHIC SHTHS, FORGIVE ME, A REGULATORY 86 00:08:09.442 --> 00:08:20.825 REQUIREMENT. BUT AS OUR ARE WITNESS TESTIFIED DURING THE TRIAL, THE MAPs ARE MERE 87 00:08:20.825 --> 00:08:27.372 REPRESENTATIONS OF THE CUSTOMERS WITH CERTAIN NPA/NXX CODES, THAT'S HOW THE MAP OF THE 88 00:08:27.372 --> 00:08:32.608 HOPEWELL EXCHANGE WAS CROW 88ED IN THE FIRST PLACE IN 1974. IT WAS THE LOCATION OF THE 89 00:08:32.608 --> 00:08:38.651 CUSTOMERS WITH THE NPA/NXX CODES TIED TO THE HOPEWELL RATE CENTER. SO THE 90 00:08:38.651 --> 00:08:47.671 QUESTION THE BEFORE THE COURT REALLY IS WHEN PT SHOULD THE COURT, OR WHEN SHOULD THE LOCAL 91 00:08:47.671 --> 00:08:55.166 TELEPHONE EXCHANGE BE DETERMINED? SHOULD THE BE DETERMINED BARK IN 1974 WHEN THAT MAP 92 00:08:55.166 --> 00:09:00.890 WAS CREATED OR SHOULD IT BE DETERMINED IN THE PRESENT DAY? AND I WOULD SUBMIT CONSISTENT 93 00:09:00.890 --> 00:09:08.859 WITH THE LANG WIF OF THE STATUTE AND THE LEGISLATIVE HISTORY, THE STATUTE IS FLUID. 94 00:09:08.859 --> 00:09:17.563 THE STATUTE ENVISIONING AN ONGOING PROVISION OF LOCAL TELEPHONE SERVICE UP TO A POINT WHERE 95 00:09:17.563 --> 00:09:25.599 COMPETITION EXISTS. AND ONCE COMPETITION EXISTS OVER TIME, THEN THE STATUTE SAYS THAT THE 96 00:09:25.599 --> 00:09:36.100 TAX NO LONGER APPLIES. AND SO THE, I FOR DPOT MY TRAIN OF THOUGHT, YOU WERE, I APOLOGIZE. 97 00:09:36.100 --> 00:09:45.276 DPOEING BACK TO YOUR QUESTION, THE, OH, THIS WHAT I WAS GOING TO SAY, THE WITNESS AT TRIAL, 98 00:09:45.276 --> 00:09:52.464 MR. WEST, TESTIFIED THAT AFTER DEREGULATION, THE MAPS WERE NO LONGER ACCURATE. AND THEY 99 00:09:52.464 --> 00:09:58.035 COULDN'T BE ACCURATE BECAUSE VERIZON DOESN'T HAVE THE INFORMATION THAT IS NECESSARY TO 100 00:09:58.035 --> 00:10:03.842 CREATE A MAP NOW BECAUSE IT DOESN'T HAVE ALL OF THE LOCATIONS OF THE CUSTOMERS OF ITS 101 00:10:03.842 --> 00:10:10.923 COMPETITORS. AND THAT WOULD BE WHAT WOULD BE REQUIRED TO CREATE A MAP, THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE 102 00:10:10.923 --> 00:10:16.099 BECAUSE VERIZON DOESN'T HAVE ALL OF THAT INFORMATION. SO WHEN IT'S KUFT 103 00:10:16.099 --> 00:10:22.828 MRS. WERE CLUSTERED, WHEN IT WAS THE OPENLY SERVICE PROEF VIETD IN THE STATE BACK IN 1974 104 00:10:22.828 --> 00:10:31.223 AND AUM THE WAY THROUGH 1996 WHEN THE B.P.U. FIRST STARTED INVESTIGATING COMPETITION, 105 00:10:31.223 --> 00:10:40.066 VERIZON KNEW THE LOCATION OF ITS CUSTOMERS AND COULD MAP AND MAP THEIR LOCATIONS AND THEY 106 00:10:40.066 --> 00:10:48.267 WERE CLUSTERED IN A CERTAIN AREA. BUT AFTER DEREGULATION, WHEN COMPETITIVE LOCAL EX 107 00:10:48.267 --> 00:10:55.815 CHAFRMG COMPANIES CAME IN, THEY CAN NO LONGER MAP THE LOCATION OF ALL THE CUSTOMERS WITHIN 108 00:10:55.815 --> 00:11:03.423 A LOCAL TELEPHONE EXCHANGE. AND ALSO -- THE. JUSTICE SOLOMON: 109 00:11:03.423 --> 00:11:09.832 IS THAT BECAUSE OF DEREGULATION THAT THEY CAN'T MAP WHERE THEY AND THEIR COMPETITORS ARE 110 00:11:09.832 --> 00:11:16.602 OR IS THAT BECAUSE THE WHOLE WAY THAT THOSE THINGS ARE CONFIGURED HAS CHANGED WITH 111 00:11:16.602 --> 00:11:21.582 TECHNOLOGICAL ADVANCES? THAT THE PEOPLE WITH THE EX CHAFRMG AREN'T NECESSARILY LIVING 112 00:11:21.582 --> 00:11:27.200 OR WORKING ANYWHERE NEAR HOPEWELL? ISN'T THAT THE PROBLEM? NATALIE H. 113 00:11:27.200 --> 00:11:31.031 MANTELL: IT'S BOTH FSHGS YOUR HONOR. JUSTICE SOLOMON: TO WHAT EXTENT OR 114 00:11:31.031 --> 00:11:35.770 EITHER. NATALIE H. MANTELL: BECAUSE OF DEREGULATION, THE ENTRANCE OF 115 00:11:35.770 --> 00:11:44.442 COMPETITORS INTO THE MARKET ALLOWED THE COMPETITORS TO ASSIGN NPA/NXX CODES TO 116 00:11:44.442 --> 00:11:50.615 CUSTOMERS THAT ARE NOT NECESSARILY LOCATED WITHIN THE MAP, SO TO SPEAK. JUSTICE 117 00:11:50.615 --> 00:11:53.442 SOLOMON: THEY COULD BE LOCATED WITHIN THE MAP. NATALIE H. MANTELL: THEY 118 00:11:53.442 --> 00:11:56.626 COULD BE BUT THEY DON'T HAVE T. JUSTICE SOLOMON: MAYBE I INTERRUPTED WHAT 119 00:11:56.626 --> 00:12:01.504 YOU WERE SAYING BUT WE ALSO DON'T KNOW WHERE THE COMPETITORS ARE IN OR OUTSIDE THE HOPEWELL. 120 00:12:01.504 --> 00:12:05.946 RIGHT? NATALIE H. MANTELL: CORRECT. JUSTICE SOLOMON: 121 00:12:05.946 --> 00:12:22.932 OKAY. TECHNOLOGY, THAT EFFECT. CAN. NATALIE H. MANTELL: BUT WE THE ADD VNTS 122 00:12:22.932 --> 00:12:32.083 OF TECHNOLOGY, IT IS REALLY DOES MAKE THE MAPS OBSOLETE, TO BE FRANK, BECAUSE I ADVENT 123 00:12:32.083 --> 00:12:37.302 OF TECHNOLOGY, THE MAPS WERE ORIGINALLY PUT INTO THE TARIFF AND THEN INTO THE PRODUCT 124 00:12:37.302 --> 00:12:45.722 GUIDE TO COMMUNICATE THE BILLING OF CERTAIN TELEPHONE CALLS, RIGHT, I MEAN WE ALL LEB 125 00:12:45.722 --> 00:12:51.866 GETTING A TELEPHONE BILL THAT HAD CERTAIN CALLS AND CERTAIN EXCHANGES, THEY WERE EITHER 126 00:12:51.866 --> 00:12:57.662 LEL OR LONG DISTANCE, THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN ANYMORE AND THAT HASN'T HAPPENED SINCE LONG 127 00:12:57.662 --> 00:13:10.155 BEFORE 2008 WHEN THIS CASE AROSE. SO THE MAPS NO LONGER REFLECT THE ACCURACY -- 128 00:13:10.155 --> 00:13:16.292 THE INACCURATE LOCAL TESTIFY EX CHAFRMG. AND THAT'S REALLY THE ISSUE THAT WE HAVE. 129 00:13:16.292 --> 00:13:26.226 BECAUSE THE NPA/NXX CODES CONTINUE TO REFLECT THE LOCAL TELEPHONE EXCHANGE. THE MAPS NO 130 00:13:26.226 --> 00:13:33.226 LONGER DO. JUSTICE WAINER APTER: THE STATUTE IS FLUID, BUT WE ARE LOOKING 131 00:13:33.226 --> 00:13:39.775 AT A STATUTORY DEFINITION. WE ARE TRYING TO DEFINE THE TERM AS OF THE TIME THAT THE 132 00:13:39.775 --> 00:13:43.905 LEGISLATURE PUT IT IN A STATUTE, CORRECT? NATALIE H. MANTELL: YES. 133 00:13:43.905 --> 00:13:47.910 JUSTICE WAINER APTER: ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT THE MEANING OF THE TERM CHANGES OVER TIME? 134 00:13:47.910 --> 00:13:52.548 NATALIE H. MANTELL: NO, THE MEANING OF THE TERM IS THE SAME. AND IT WAS. 135 00:13:52.548 --> 00:13:55.595 JUSTICE WAINER APTER: LOOK AT WHAT THE TERM MEPTS IN 1989 COMBH THE STATUTE 136 00:13:55.595 --> 00:14:01.770 WAS ORIGINALLY PASSED OR 1997 WHEN IT WAS ACHLED TO DEFINE THIS PHRASE, CORRECT? 137 00:14:01.770 --> 00:14:05.663 NATALIE H. MANTELL: CORRECT. JUSTICE WAINER APTER: 19 NOUCH A PRESUMABLY 138 00:14:05.663 --> 00:14:09.225 WHEN TWU END ANLDED TO DEFINE THITS PHRASE. NATALIE H. MANTELL: AND IT WAS ON 139 00:14:09.225 --> 00:14:12.957 THE HEELS OF THE TELECOMMUNICATIONS ACT OF 1996. AND EVERYBODY IN THE INDUSTRY UNDERSTOOD 140 00:14:12.957 --> 00:14:17.799 WHAT THAT TERM MEANT. THIS NOT A DID HE HAVE NITHS THAT HAS CHANGED. AT THIS TIME A 141 00:14:17.799 --> 00:14:22.567 TERM OF ART THAT THAT BEEN YOUFD IN THE INDUSTRY FOR DECADES REALLY. JUSTICE 142 00:14:22.567 --> 00:14:25.363 WAINER APTER: AS THE CHIEF POISONED YOU OUT IN YOUR MATERIALS FROM THAT TIME AND EVEN 143 00:14:25.363 --> 00:14:32.286 ALL THE WAY, I THINK IT WAS FROM 1993 TO 2014, YOU SPECIFICALLY STATED THAT THE LATAS, 144 00:14:32.286 --> 00:14:39.316 ENCOMPASS CONTINUOUS LOCAL EXCHANGE AREAS. SO FOOR HE WILL EXCHANGE AREA 145 00:14:39.316 --> 00:14:44.524 TO BE CONTIGUOUS RGS DOESN'T VITS TO HAVE GEOGRAPHY OR DOESN'T IT HAVE TO BE GEOGRAPHIC 146 00:14:44.524 --> 00:14:48.705 IN SOME WAY? NATALIE H. MANTELL: IT DOES, YOU WERE RGS AND IN AT THE TIME 147 00:14:48.705 --> 00:14:54.952 IN 1993 UP THE IN THE STATUTE ACH AP THIS WAS 1993 THROUGH TWOJ TREEN THAT YOU SAID THIS. 148 00:14:54.952 --> 00:14:59.790 NATALIE H. MANTELL: YES, YOU WERE RNGS BECAUSE IN 2014 THE MRUKT GUIDE REPLACED 149 00:14:59.790 --> 00:15:09.428 THE TARIFF. BUT AT THE TIME WHEN THE STATUTE WAS ENACTED IN 1997, THE PT 150 00:15:09.428 --> 00:15:17.911 L T E WAS CONTIGUOUS BECAUSE VERIZON WAS A MONOPOLY AND IT WAS A SOO, AL AGO YOU SETD 151 00:15:17.911 --> 00:15:23.411 LATA ENCOMPASSES CONTIGUOUS LOCAL EKTS CHAFRM AREAS IMPLYING THAT THE LOCAL EX CHAFRM 152 00:15:23.411 --> 00:15:26.747 AESHS WERE THEPTSZ SOMETHING THAT COULD BE CONTIGUOUS. NATALIE H. MANTELL: 153 00:15:26.747 --> 00:15:34.549 SO A COUPLE OF THOUGHTS HERE, YOU WERE. 1ST IS A LATA IS SEPARATE FROM A LOCAL TELEPHONE, 154 00:15:34.549 --> 00:15:43.135 THERE ARE THREE LATAS IN NEW JERSEY, THEY'RE VERY LARGE AREAS AND. JUSTICE WAINER 155 00:15:43.135 --> 00:15:47.723 APTER: UNDERSTOOD AND THERE ARE A NUMBER OF LOCAL HE CAN CHACHLS WITHIN EACH ONE. 156 00:15:47.723 --> 00:15:54.989 NATALIE H. MANTELL: CORRECT, AND IN 1987 AND 1993 WHEN THE TARIFF WAS CREATED, THOSE L 157 00:15:54.989 --> 00:16:01.630 T E, THE LOCAL TELEPHONE EX CHAFRMS WITHIN THE LAN ERR LATAS WERE CONTIGUOUS BECAUSE VERIZON 158 00:16:01.630 --> 00:16:09.413 HAD A MONOPOLY AT THE TIME. AGRICULTURE THE TIME IS 1993 TWOJ 2014. NATALIE H. 159 00:16:09.413 --> 00:16:13.923 MANTELL: THE DIN CHANGE ESSENTIALLY. AGRICULTURE YOU DECIDED TO CHACHLG OR NOT CHAFRM 160 00:16:13.923 --> 00:16:18.067 SO DON'T YOU HAVE TO LIVE TO WHAT YOU HAVE TO DESCRIBE WHATEVER IT WAS FOR THE PURPOSES 161 00:16:18.067 --> 00:16:21.917 OF THE LEGISLATURE'S UNDERSTANDING WHAT EXACTLY IT WAS THEY WERE PUTTING INTO THE STATUTE? 162 00:16:21.917 --> 00:16:26.970 THEY COULD TAKE YOUR DEP NIGS AND UNDERSTAND THAT IT WAS GEE GRAPHIC AND BELIEVE WHEN 163 00:16:26.970 --> 00:16:31.581 THEFRP ENACTS THE STATUTE THAT IT WAS GEE GRAPHIC BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT YOU TOLD THEM IN 164 00:16:31.581 --> 00:16:36.369 1997 OR 1989. NATALIE H. MANTELL: YOUR HONOR, THE LEGISLATURE UNDERSTOOD 165 00:16:36.369 --> 00:16:45.004 THAT LOCAL TELEPHONE EX CHAFRMG WAS TIED TO THE NPA/NXX CODES. IT WASN'T SOLELY GEOGRAPHIC. 166 00:16:45.004 --> 00:16:49.809 IT HAS A GEOGRAPHIC COMPONENT BECAUSE THE LOCATIONS OF THE CUSTOMERS WITH THOSE CONCERN 167 00:16:49.809 --> 00:16:55.615 NPA/NXX CODES CAN BE PLOTTED ON A MAP AND THAT'S EXACTLY HOW THEY WERE PLOT THE IN 1974. 168 00:16:55.615 --> 00:17:02.819 AND THAT'S HOW THEY CONTINUED TO BE PLOTTED IN 1993 AND IN 1997. AFTER 169 00:17:02.819 --> 00:17:13.272 1997, THERE CAME COMPETITION. TN AS A RESULT OF THAT COMPETITION, IT WAS NO LONGER POSSIBLE 170 00:17:13.272 --> 00:17:24.235 TO PLOT EVERY KUFT MIR WITHIN, WITH CERTAIN NPA/NXX CODES ON A MAP BECAUSE -- ACH AP IN 171 00:17:24.235 --> 00:17:29.648 2014 AS THE CHIEF JUSTICE POISONED OUT THE MAPS SHOWED THE TERRITORIAL BOUNDARY OF EACH 172 00:17:29.648 --> 00:17:33.803 EXCHANGE AREA? NATALIE H. MANTELL: THAT'S TRUE, YOUR HONOR, AND I HAVE 173 00:17:33.803 --> 00:17:41.978 TO CONCEDE THAT THAT'S WHAT THE PRODUCT GUIDE SAYS, BUT ALSO WRANT TO LET THE COURT KNOW 174 00:17:41.978 --> 00:17:45.713 THAT WAS A REGULATORY REQUIREMENT, TO HAVE THAT PRODUCT GUIDE THE ON FIEM WAS A REGULATORY 175 00:17:45.713 --> 00:17:53.144 REQUIREMENT. BUT IN TWOJ -- JUSTICE WAINER APTER: IT IT'S EXISTENCE WAS 176 00:17:53.144 --> 00:17:59.284 A REGULATORY RIERT, BUT THEY DIDN'T TERRITORIAL A ENGS CHAFRM AREA. NATALIE H. 177 00:17:59.284 --> 00:18:08.264 MANTELL: THAT'S TRUE, YOU WERE, BUT THE PRODUCT GUIDE, IT WAS REALLY, THE MAP REALLY 178 00:18:08.264 --> 00:18:19.044 EBBS SIFTED FOR AT THAT TIME FOR CONVENIENCE, SO TO SPEAK. AT THAT TIME BOTH IN 2014 AND 179 00:18:19.044 --> 00:18:27.357 MUCH EARLIER THAN THAT, THE WAY THAT PRICING WAS DONE IN THE INDUSTRY CHANGED COMPLETELY. 180 00:18:27.357 --> 00:18:36.029 SO THE MAPs WEREN'T USED ANYMORE EVEN AT THAT TIME TO IDENTIFY THE PRICE OF A CERTAIN 181 00:18:36.029 --> 00:18:42.545 CALL. IT WAS CALLED ZONE PRICING, THERE WAS NO ZONE PRICING ANYMORE IN 2014 OR EVEN IN 182 00:18:42.545 --> 00:18:51.168 PT 2008. THE EDGE TIRE INDUSTRY CHAFRMED AS JUSTICE SHOL MON NOTED. SO 183 00:18:51.168 --> 00:18:57.625 THE MAPS ARE ROLLY OBSOLETE. THE Ary ROLLY A WAY FOR LAYPEOPLE TO GENERALLY UNDERSTAND 184 00:18:57.625 --> 00:19:05.245 WHAT A LOCAL TELEPHONE EXCHANGE IS. BUT THAT'S NOT THE DEFINITION, THAT'S NOT WHAT THE 185 00:19:05.245 --> 00:19:11.345 LEGISLATURE UNDERSTOOD IN 1997 TO BE THE DID HE HAVE NITHS. AND ALSO KEEP IN 186 00:19:11.345 --> 00:19:16.147 MAY I APPROACH ARE THE INDUSTRY WAS HEAVILY INVOLVED IN CRAFTING THIS STATUTE. THAT'S 187 00:19:16.147 --> 00:19:26.112 IN THE PAST MEMO, THAT'S EVERYWHERE. IT'S REEL, IT WAS REALLY A JOINT EFFORT BY LOTS 188 00:19:26.112 --> 00:19:34.529 OF INTERESTED PARTIES TO CRAFT THIS LEGISLATION. AND, AS I SAID, TWA MUCH 0 THE HEELS 189 00:19:34.529 --> 00:19:39.716 OF THE MANY TELL COMMUNICATION ACT OF 19 NIBS, WHICH OVERHAULED THE ENTIRE STREEN DPOT 190 00:19:39.716 --> 00:19:47.350 INDUSTRY READY FOR COMPETITION. SO IF EVERYBODY UNDERSTOOD AT THE TIME THAT 191 00:19:47.350 --> 00:19:55.373 IT WAS, WHAT A LOCAL TELEPHONE EX CHAFRM WAS. AND I THINK WHAT IS REALLY TELLING IS WHAT 192 00:19:55.373 --> 00:20:01.821 I MENTIONED BEFORE WHICH IS THE NEW JERSEY ADMINISTRATIVE CODE PUT THAT, CODIFIED THAT 193 00:20:01.821 --> 00:20:11.652 UNDERSTANDING INTO -- LELTS ME BAG UP. THE B.P.U. CODIFIED THAT UNDERSTANDING NO THE 194 00:20:11.652 --> 00:20:14.715 NEW JERSEY ADMINISTRATIVE CODE. JUSTICE WAINER APTER: CAN YOU TELL THUS 195 00:20:14.715 --> 00:20:22.407 CITATION ONE MORE TIME. NATALIE H. MANTELL: N.J.A.C. SECTION 14:10-311. 196 00:20:22.407 --> 00:20:33.794 AND SO THE B.P.U. ALSO UNDERSTOOD THAT THIS TERM MEANT, IT WAS WITH REFERENCE 197 00:20:33.794 --> 00:20:43.167 TO THE NPA/NXX CODES. THAT WAS THE INDUSTRY UNDERSTANDING. AND IT WAS ESSENTIALLIES 198 00:20:43.167 --> 00:20:51.999 APPROACH WAS RATIFIED IN 2007. AND THAT IS ALSO BEARS SOMETHING BECAUSE IT WAS BEFORE 199 00:20:51.999 --> 00:21:01.288 VERIZON SENT THE LETTER TO HOPE PEL IN THIS CASE THAT HIT FALL LEP BELOW 51 PERCENT BASED 200 00:21:01.288 --> 00:21:07.794 UPON THAT INTERPRETATION. AND IT WAS REASONABLE FOR VERIZON TO ROW LIE UPON THAT 201 00:21:07.794 --> 00:21:13.031 INTERPRETATION AND THAT'S THE WAY ET HAD DONE IT BEFORE THAT AND THAT'S THE WAY IT HAS 202 00:21:13.031 --> 00:21:20.128 DONE IT SINCE. THAERS BEEN NO VER YAGS, VERIZON HAS BEEN ROLLY AN EN CREDIBLE CORPORATE 203 00:21:20.128 --> 00:21:29.578 CITIZEN IN THIS, IN THIS MANNER AND IN THIS AREA. EVEN WHEN IT DISPUTED FILING, HAVING 204 00:21:29.578 --> 00:21:35.734 TO FILE THIS RETURN AND HAVING TO PAY THITS TAX, IF IT RECEIVED A TAX BILL, IT PAID IT 205 00:21:35.734 --> 00:21:39.388 AND THEN FILED A TAX APPEAL. CHIEF JUSTICE RABNER: THERE'S NO QUESTION 206 00:21:39.388 --> 00:21:43.716 BEFORE US ABOUT WHAT A GOOD CORPORATE CITIZEN VERIZON IS WE'RE TRYING TO UNTHE STATUTE. 207 00:21:43.716 --> 00:21:46.562 NATALIE H. MANTELL: NO BROB, YOUR HONOR, IEN. JUSTICE SOLOMON: 208 00:21:46.562 --> 00:21:54.767 TO SAY THAT THE LEGISLATURE UTILIZED VERIZON'S DEFINITION OF THE LOCAL EXCHANGE. I MEAN 209 00:21:54.767 --> 00:22:00.082 P I DON'T, I DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING IN THE LEGISLATIVE HISTORY OR FRANKLY THE CASE THAT 210 00:22:00.082 --> 00:22:06.072 YOU TALKED ABOUT IN THE SUPREME COURT THAT SUGGESTED THEY ADOPT THAT DEFINITION. THEY 211 00:22:06.072 --> 00:22:09.851 ALWAYS REFER TON THE MAPS AND THE GEOGRAPHIC AREAS. NATALIE H. MANTELL: 212 00:22:09.851 --> 00:22:15.994 THE LOIF HISTORY DOESN'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE MAPS OR GEOGRAPHIC AREA OR THE DEFINITION 213 00:22:15.994 --> 00:22:18.964 OF THE. JUSTICE SOLOMON: I DPREE WITH THAT. NATALIE H. MANTELL: 214 00:22:18.964 --> 00:22:23.511 AGAIN ANOTHER HE SHALL HEEFRPT BUT THE U.S. SUPREME'S COURT DECISION DOES IN FACT COMPORT 215 00:22:23.511 --> 00:22:28.961 WITH VERIZON'S DEFINITION. JUSTICE SOLOMON: WHICH DECISION? 216 00:22:28.961 --> 00:22:39.414 NATALIE H. MANTELL: THE VERIZON COMMUNICATION VES THE FCC 535 U.S. 467. AT PAGE 490 217 00:22:39.414 --> 00:22:49.438 FROM 2002. AND THE LANGUAGE IN THAT DECISION P IS TELLING, I THINK. IT SAYS A TRANSPORTATION 218 00:22:49.438 --> 00:22:55.414 NET FOR FOR COMMUNICATION SIGNAL NULTS, RADIATING LOIK A ROOT SYSTEM FROM A CENTRAL OFFICE 219 00:22:55.414 --> 00:23:00.676 OR SEVERAL OFFICES FOR LARGER AREAS TO INDIVIDUAL TELEPHONE, FAXES AND THE LIKE. 220 00:23:00.676 --> 00:23:04.154 IT'S TALKING ABOUT THE SAME -- JUSTICE SOLOMON: DON'T THEY SPECIFICALLY 221 00:23:04.154 --> 00:23:11.969 SAY WITHIN A GEOGRAPHIC AREA? NETWORK CONNECTING TERMINALS LIKE TELEPHONES, AND MODEM 222 00:23:11.969 --> 00:23:17.630 TO OTHER TERL NULS WITHIN A GEOGRAPHICAL AREA LIKE A CITY. NATALIE H. 223 00:23:17.630 --> 00:23:22.041 MANTELL: YES, YOU WERE SOM SOL DOESN'T THAT SEEM TO BE IP KICHT APARTMENT WITH WHAT YOU'RE 224 00:23:22.041 --> 00:23:25.983 ARGUING? NATALIE H. MANTELL: NO BECAUSE THERE A GEOGRAPHICAL COMPONENT 225 00:23:25.983 --> 00:23:31.527 THO THIS, BUT WHAT THE MAP LOOKS LIKE IS DRIVEN BY THE PEOPLE HOOL HAVE SEARCH AREA CODE 226 00:23:31.527 --> 00:23:37.310 AND EXCHANGES. THERE IS A GEOGRAPHICAL AREA RS THERE CAN BE A GEOGRAPHICAL AREA NOW. 227 00:23:37.310 --> 00:23:48.102 BUT THE MAP IS ALL OEFRT PLACE RGS SO 0 TO SPEAK, BECAUSE THE CUSTOMERS THE WITH THOETS 228 00:23:48.102 --> 00:23:57.266 NPA N.X X CODES FROM COMPETITIVE LOCAL EX CHAFRMG COMPANIES AND VERN THE OTHER TWO ILECS 229 00:23:57.266 --> 00:24:02.690 ARE ALL OVER THE PLACE. BUT THE REASON IT'S IMPORTANT FOR THAT DEFINITION IS BECAUSE 230 00:24:02.690 --> 00:24:11.730 VERIZON, IF THE MAPS ARE USED NOW, VERIZON CAN'T GO BACK AND SEEK A REFUND FROM THE 231 00:24:11.730 --> 00:24:17.121 MUNICIPALITIES WHERE IT PAID THE TAX BASED UPON ITS CALCULATION OF THE, BASED UPON THE 232 00:24:17.121 --> 00:24:23.422 NPA/NXX CODES. SO THERE ARE MUNICIPALITIES WHERE VERIZON WOULD NOT HAVE HAD TO PAY THE 233 00:24:23.422 --> 00:24:32.491 TAX HAD IT RELIED ON THE MAPS. BUT IT DID BECAUSE IT RELIED ON THE NPA/NXX CODES. AND 234 00:24:32.491 --> 00:24:41.256 THEN THERE ARE -- IN THOSE JURISDICTIONS, VERIZON CAN'T GE BA, THE PEA NOT POSSIBLE TO 235 00:24:41.256 --> 00:24:49.224 GO BACK AND CHAFRMG THE CALCULATION NOW BECAUSE VERIZON CAN'T SEEK A REFUND IN THOSE PLACES. 236 00:24:49.224 --> 00:24:58.435 BUT SO THAT ALSO BRINGS ME TO A REQUEST. SO IF IN THE EVENT THE COURT DOES ADOCHT THE 237 00:24:58.435 --> 00:25:04.295 MAPS AS THE APPROACH THAT SHOULD BE USED, VERIZON REQUESTS THAT IT ONLY DO SO PROSPECTIVELY 238 00:25:04.295 --> 00:25:12.102 FROM ITS DECISION. THE FOR THE REASONS I JUST SAID BECAUSE IT'S NOT, FRANKLY, IT'S NOT 239 00:25:12.102 --> 00:25:18.003 FAIR FOR VERIZON TO HAVE YOU'VE THE INDUSTRY DEFINITION AND RELIED AND ON THE INDUSTRY 240 00:25:18.003 --> 00:25:26.841 DEFINITION KIFRT CYSTLY P NOT BE ABLE TO GO BACK NOW. IT PRESERVES ITS RIGHTS IN EVERY 241 00:25:26.841 --> 00:25:36.656 CASE WHERE IT MREEFSHS IT WAS NOT REQUIRED THE. IT WAS NOT REQUIRED TO PAY THE TAX AND 242 00:25:36.656 --> 00:25:48.179 FOR THE COURT TO CHAFRMG THAT NOW WOULD REALLY BE, WOULD REALLY BE UNFAIR. 243 00:25:48.179 --> 00:25:51.528 CHIEF JUSTICE RABNER: COIN SELL, WE'RE ABOUT 25 MIVENTS FRNS IS THERE ACHE YOU WOULD TLOIK 244 00:25:51.528 --> 00:26:02.030 ADD BEFORE WE BRIPG YOU BACK ON REBUTTAL? NATALIE H. MANTELL: NO, YOUR HONOR 245 00:26:02.030 --> 00:26:12.098 RNGS I THINK I'VE COVERED EVERYTHING. TR TAUR CHIEF JUSTICE RABNER: MR. 246 00:26:12.098 --> 00:26:16.853 TAURIELLO. JOSEPH C. TAURIELLO: THANK YOU, YOUR HONORS. MAY 247 00:26:16.853 --> 00:26:20.984 IT PLEASE THE COURT. AS COUNSEL INDICATED THE SINGLE ISSUE BEFORE THIS COURT 248 00:26:20.984 --> 00:26:27.107 IS THE TERM LOCAL TELEPHONE EXCHANGE WHICH IS USED BY THE LEGISLATURE, BUT NOT DEAF FIEND 249 00:26:27.107 --> 00:26:33.243 IN THE OPERATIVE TAXING STATUTE. THAT, UNFORTUNATELY, IS PROBABLY WHERE OUR 250 00:26:33.243 --> 00:26:44.065 AGREEMENT ENDS. THIS ISSUE REALLY STAKES OUT DISPARATE POSITIONS, HOPEWELL, 251 00:26:44.065 --> 00:26:49.349 THE TRIAL COURT AND THE APPELLATE COURT TAKE THE POSITION THAT A LOCAL TELEPHONE EXCHANGE 252 00:26:49.349 --> 00:26:56.431 IS A GEO PHOTOGRAPHIC KAL AREA DEFINED BY KNOWN BOUNDARIES AND CONTRARY TO WHAT COUNSEL 253 00:26:56.431 --> 00:27:03.055 SAID HERE TODAY, SHE'S ACTUALLY DISAGREED WITH THE TESTIMONY OF VERIZON'S EXPERT, MR. 254 00:27:03.055 --> 00:27:08.573 WEST. MR. WEST AND VERIZON TOOK THE POSITION AT TRIAL AND AT THE APPELLATE 255 00:27:08.573 --> 00:27:13.692 COURT THAT A LOCAL TELEPHONE EXCHANGE, AGAIN, DESPITE WHAT WAS SAID HERE TODAY WAS A 256 00:27:13.692 --> 00:27:19.867 THEORETICAL CONSTRUCT, NOT TETHERED TO IF WE OG TRAF FEE AT ALL. THAT WAS THE TESTIMONY 257 00:27:19.867 --> 00:27:30.083 AT TRIAL. SO, THE PROBLEM WITH VERIZON'S POSITION IS IT IS CONTRARY TO THE 258 00:27:30.083 --> 00:27:36.542 WAIKT OF THE EVIDENCE AND IT'S CONTRARY TO THEIR OWN INTERNAL DOCUMENTS. THE PRODUCT 259 00:27:36.542 --> 00:27:44.870 GUIDE THAT IS ON FILE WITH THE BPU TODAY SAYS MAPS ARE CONTAINED IN SEPARATE BEEND DERS. 260 00:27:44.870 --> 00:27:50.940 THESE BINDERS CONTAIN A MAP FOR EACH EXCHANGE AREA. THE MAPS WHICH ARE PART OF THIS 261 00:27:50.940 --> 00:27:57.788 SECTION OF THIS PRODUCT GUIDE SHOW THE TERRITORIAL BOUNDARIES FOR EACH EXCHANGE 262 00:27:57.788 --> 00:28:04.320 AREA. THAT STATEMENT WAS A HUNDRED PERCENT CORRECT IN 1974 AND IT'S HUNDRED 263 00:28:04.320 --> 00:28:10.365 PERCENT TODAY AND MOST IMPORTANTLY IT WAS HUNDRED PERCENT CORRECT ON THE DAY THE LEGISLATURE 264 00:28:10.365 --> 00:28:16.872 CRAFTED THE STATUTE. THAT WAS IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN ON FILE WITH THE BPU IN THE FORM OF 265 00:28:16.872 --> 00:28:26.393 A TARIFF. WHEN VERIZON CHANGED THE TARIFF TO A PRODUCT GUIDE, THEY CHOSE TO 266 00:28:26.393 --> 00:28:31.890 ADOPT ALL OF THE VERBIAGE FROM THEIR TARIFF INTO THE PRODUCT GUIDE, INCLUDING THOSE MAPs. 267 00:28:31.890 --> 00:28:37.630 SECOND, AS THE TRIAL AN APPELLATE COURT CORRECTLY NOTED A LOCAL ACCESS AND 268 00:28:37.630 --> 00:28:44.452 TRAJS SPORT AREA OR A LATA ARE IMPORTANT ASPECTS OF THE TELECOMMUNICATION REGULATORY 269 00:28:44.452 --> 00:28:52.487 FRAMEWORK. WHERE THE GO OH GRAPHICALLY DEFINED LOCAL TELEPHONE EXCHANGES FORMED THE BUILDING 270 00:28:52.487 --> 00:28:59.185 BLOCKS OF THESE LATAS AND THEY WERE INTEGRAL TO THE REGULATION OF THE TELECOMMUNICATIONS 271 00:28:59.185 --> 00:29:09.094 INDUSTRY BECAUSE AFTER DEREGULATION THE BABY BELLS WERE NOT ALLOWED TO COMPETE INTER-LATA, 272 00:29:09.094 --> 00:29:16.328 I GUESS. THEY HAD TO STAY WITHIN THE THEIR LATA. THEY HAD TO STAY WITHIN THEIR LANE. 273 00:29:16.328 --> 00:29:24.248 THEY COULD NOT COMPETE INTO EXTERNAL LATAS SO IT'S ALL ABOUT THE GEOGRAPHY. THE LATAS 274 00:29:24.248 --> 00:29:30.344 ARE AN INTEGRAL COMPONENT OF THE TELECOMMUNICATIONS INTERNAL REGULATIONS. 275 00:29:30.344 --> 00:29:41.419 THIRD VERIZON'S INTERNAL EXPERT, SAID AT TRIAL AT S C.A. AT PAGE 47 THAT THAT THE 276 00:29:41.419 --> 00:29:46.737 DEFINITION OF A LOCAL TELEPHONE EXCHANGE COULD NOT BE TIED TO ANY SPECIFIC GEOGRAPHIC 277 00:29:46.737 --> 00:29:53.726 AREA. THAT WAS HIS TESTIMONY. INDEED HIS DIN THEY SIZED DEAF NIRGS RESULT 278 00:29:53.726 --> 00:30:01.132 IN DIAL TONE AND ACCESS LINES LOCATED IN TRENTON, LOCATED IN ATLANTIC ZIT OR FOR THAT 279 00:30:01.132 --> 00:30:09.128 MATTER, LOCATED ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY TO FORM THE HOPEWELL LOCAL TELEPHONE 280 00:30:09.128 --> 00:30:15.194 EXCHANGE. THAT COULD NOT BE WHAT THE LEGISLATURE CONTEMPLATED AND I WOULD 281 00:30:15.194 --> 00:30:24.254 JUST ADD AS THIS COURT STATED IN ROAST V LOOIL 245 N J 105 IN 2021, THAT WHEN INTERPRETING 282 00:30:24.254 --> 00:30:32.391 THE LEGISLATIVE INTENT THE COURT SHOULD AVOID ABSURD RESULTS. I WOULD SUGGEST THAT THIS 283 00:30:32.391 --> 00:30:38.537 WOULD BE THE POSTER CHILD OF AN ABSURD RESULT IN ALLOWING TELEPHONE AN ACCESS LINES SCATTERED 284 00:30:38.537 --> 00:30:44.944 THROUGHOUT THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY TO BE THE SINGULAR DEFINITION OF A HOPEWELL LOCAL 285 00:30:44.944 --> 00:30:53.830 EXCHANGE. AND ON CROSS-EXAMINATION, MR. WEST WAS ASKED, BECAUSE HE TESTIFIED 286 00:30:53.830 --> 00:31:01.641 THAT THIS WAS HIS DEFINITION. HE CREATED IT OUT OF HIS 35 YEARS OF EXPERIENCE. AND HE WAS 287 00:31:01.641 --> 00:31:15.130 ASKED THAT IF THERE WAS ANY DOCUMENTS -- LET ME PHRASE IT THIS WAY. HE CONCEDED THAT 288 00:31:15.130 --> 00:31:21.422 WHILE HE ADVOCATED HIS SYNTHESIZED DEFINITION HE COULD NOT POINT TO A SINGLE AUTHORITY 289 00:31:21.422 --> 00:31:27.390 OR DOCUMENT THAT FLOID HIS DEFINITION OF A LOCAL TELEPHONE EXCHANGE INCLUDING ALL OF VERIZON'S 290 00:31:27.390 --> 00:31:37.337 MAPS, ALL OF VERIZON'S PRIOR TARIFFS AN VERIZON'S PRODUCT GUIDE. FINALLY VERIZON'S 291 00:31:37.337 --> 00:31:43.387 POSITION IS NOT IN ACCORD WITH THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT COURT'S 2002 DESCRIPTION 292 00:31:43.387 --> 00:31:48.595 OF A LOCAL EXCHANGE WHICH I THINK WAS ALLUDED TO IN THE COLLOQUY BEFORE WHERE THE U.S. 293 00:31:48.595 --> 00:31:54.503 SUPREME COURT DESCRIBED THE LOCAL EXCHANGE AS A NETWORK CONNECTING TERMINALS LIKE TELEPHONES 294 00:31:54.503 --> 00:32:02.292 FAXES MODEMS AND OTHER TERMS ANALYSIS WITHIN A GEOGRAPHIC AREA LIKE A CITY, CASE CITED 295 00:32:02.292 --> 00:32:09.489 AT PAGE 489 AND 490. CONVERSELY, HOPE, HOPEWELL CORRECTLY NOTED THE WIDESPREAD 296 00:32:09.489 --> 00:32:14.873 AND LONG HELD INDUSTRY PRACTICE DOCUMENT THAT A LOCAL TELEPHONE EXCHANGE IS AS DEFINED 297 00:32:14.873 --> 00:32:21.425 BY VERIZON IN ITS LONG STANDING EXCHANGE MAPS THAT HAVE REMAINED ON FILE WITH THE BOARD 298 00:32:21.425 --> 00:32:28.549 OF PUBLIC UTILITIES FROM THE EARLY 1970S. THEY WERE ON FILE WHEN THE LEGISLATURE ADOPTED 299 00:32:28.549 --> 00:32:35.773 THE STATUTE AN THEY ARE ON FILE TODAY. SO, AT BOTTOM, GEOGRAPHY AND BOUNDARIES 300 00:32:35.773 --> 00:32:42.818 MATTER WHEN YOU'RE DEFINING A MARKET. IN FACT, THE BOUNDARIES AN GEOGRAPHY 301 00:32:42.818 --> 00:32:50.075 ARE SO KRIT TAL TO UNDERTAKE AN ANALYSIS THAT VERIZON'S OWN EXTERNAL EXPERT AT TRIAL, 302 00:32:50.075 --> 00:32:57.503 MR. VAN CONCEDED HE COULDN'T PROFFER HIS OPINION OR DO HIS ANALYSIS WITHOUT RELYING ON 303 00:32:57.503 --> 00:33:04.016 THE LOCAL HOPEWELL TELEPHONE EXCHANGE MAP AND THAT'S FOUND AT S C.A. AT PAGE 57. 304 00:33:04.016 --> 00:33:09.863 THIS I WOULD SUBMIT IS A RATHER SIMPLE CASE TO DECIDE. THIS COURT SHOULD AFFIRM THE 305 00:33:09.863 --> 00:33:15.927 APPELLATE DIVISION'S AFFIRM MANS OF THE TRIAL COURT BECAUSE ACCEPTING OF THE BURST 306 00:33:15.927 --> 00:33:22.135 DEFINITION OF A LOEL TELEPHONE EXCHANGE IS CONSISTENT WITH THE COMMON AN HISTORICAL 307 00:33:22.135 --> 00:33:27.013 UNDERSTANDING WITHIN THE TELECOMMUNICATIONS INDUSTRY. IT'S CONSISTENT WITH VERIZON'S OWN 308 00:33:27.013 --> 00:33:33.631 PRODUCT GUIDE ON FILE WITH THE BPU AS WELL AS ITS FORMER TAR RIFS AN IET LOCAL EXCHANGE 309 00:33:33.631 --> 00:33:39.629 MAPS WHICH HAVE BEEN INCORPORATED IN BOTH. IT'S CONSISTENT WITH THE ORIGINAL GEOGRAPHICAL 310 00:33:39.629 --> 00:33:45.905 CONSTRUCT OF A LATA WHICH STILL REMAIN IMPORTANT TODAY AND IT'S CONSISTENT WITH THE MEANING 311 00:33:45.905 --> 00:33:52.358 ASCRIBED BY OTHERS WHETHER IT'S THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT OR THE FCC OR NOOEL SENT 312 00:33:52.358 --> 00:34:00.729 OR THE OTHER NOOEL SENT OR OTHERS THAT VERIZON'S EXPERT CITED IN HIS REPORT ALL RELYING 313 00:34:00.729 --> 00:34:07.891 ON BOUNDARIES; THAT'S HOW YOU TO AN ANALYSIS OF THE MARKET. YOU NEED TO KNOW THE PRODUCT 314 00:34:07.891 --> 00:34:13.326 YOU NEED TO KNOW THE MASHLTH THAT'S WHAT THIS DOES. JUSTICE SOLOMON: I HAVE 315 00:34:13.326 --> 00:34:19.745 A QUESTION BECAUSE THIS IS SOMETHING I REALLY HAVE DIFFICULTY XRE HENDING AMONG MANY 316 00:34:19.745 --> 00:34:25.018 DIFFERENT THIPGS IN THIS AREA, BUT THIS IS ONE, VERIZON IS TAXED TO THE PROPERTY THAT THEY 317 00:34:25.018 --> 00:34:32.849 HAVE IN AN AREA AND THAT TAX IS BASED UPON THE VALUE OR THE NATURE OF THAT PROPERTY, IT 318 00:34:32.849 --> 00:34:38.324 COULD BE, YOU KNOW, PIPES, WIRES, ALL THIS INFRASTRUCTURE THAT ALL THE OTHER COMPANIES 319 00:34:38.324 --> 00:34:47.940 NOW USE APPARENTLY, BUT VERIZON USES, ALSO, AND IT'S HOUSED IN A PARTICULAR AREA. AND 320 00:34:47.940 --> 00:34:53.466 THAT THAT AREA DETERMINES HOW MUCH OF THAT STUFF AND WHAT THE VALUE OF IT IS THAT IS TO BE 321 00:34:53.466 --> 00:34:58.996 TAXED IS WHAT IS REALLY BEING FOUGHT ABOUT HERE. DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE 322 00:34:58.996 --> 00:35:05.782 WHEN NOTHING VERIZON DOES ANYMORE, JUST BECAUSE THEY HAVE THIS CENTER, THIS EXCHANGE CENTER 323 00:35:05.782 --> 00:35:15.448 IN HOPEWELL SERVES HOPEWELL. IT SERVES PEOPLE PROBABLY ALL OVER THE WORLD WHO HAVE VERIZON 324 00:35:15.448 --> 00:35:23.219 CELLPHONES, INCLUDING LINES AT AT&T AN MERRILL LYNCH AN ELSEWHERE. DOES THIS 325 00:35:23.219 --> 00:35:29.658 MAKE ANY SENSE FOR TAXING PURPOSES? DOES THIS IN ANY WAY FULFILL ANY PURPOSE 326 00:35:29.658 --> 00:35:39.904 OF THE TAX CODE TO TAX THEM BASED ON THIS STUFF THAT SERVES A HUGE EX SPANS OF CUSTOMERS 327 00:35:39.904 --> 00:35:47.132 ALL OVER A REGION, A COUNTRY, MAYBE THE WORLD. I MEAN, I AM TRYING TO FIGURE 328 00:35:47.132 --> 00:35:56.829 OUT HOW THIS DEBATE BEARS ANY REASONABLE RELATIONSHIP TO THIS TAX ISSUE ANY MORE? 329 00:35:56.829 --> 00:36:01.502 JOSEPH C. TAURIELLO: WELL, THERE IS A LOT TO TRY AND ANSWER THERE. I AM GOING 330 00:36:01.502 --> 00:36:10.730 TO START BY SAYING IT'S BEEN SOME TIME SINCE I READ THE HISTORY OF THE DEREGULATION BECAUSE 331 00:36:10.730 --> 00:36:16.139 THAT WAS NOT A QUESTION BEFORE THIS COURT SO I AM GOING TO RELY UPON MY MEMORY WHICH CAN BE 332 00:36:16.139 --> 00:36:23.788 -- SOMETIMES IT CAN COMBET ME IN TROUBLE. JOSEPH C. TAURIELLO: DOES THAT 333 00:36:23.788 --> 00:36:29.834 MATTER IN THIS CASE. JOSEPH C. TAURIELLO: YES, IT DOES. IT'S CRITICAL IN 334 00:36:29.834 --> 00:36:35.258 THIS CASE AN ACTUALLY WHAT COUNSEL HAD REQUESTED AS A RELIEF OF APPLYING IT PROSPECTIVELY, 335 00:36:35.258 --> 00:36:41.193 BASICALLY WHAT THEY ARE SAYING IS THEY DON'T WANT TO PAY A TAX FROM 2009 FORWARD BECAUSE 336 00:36:41.193 --> 00:36:48.334 I THINK IF WE WERE TO DO A MARKET ANALYSIS IN THE HOPEWELL LOCAL EXCHANGE IN 2024 THEY 337 00:36:48.334 --> 00:36:53.811 PROBABLY DON'T HAVE 51 PERCENT AND THE TAX THEY ARE SUBJECT TO WOULD HAVE BEEN SUNSETED 338 00:36:53.811 --> 00:37:01.066 BY THAT POINT. THERE ARE 200 PLUS LOCAL EXCHANGES IN THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY 339 00:37:01.066 --> 00:37:09.325 AT A PARTICULAR -- I THINK VERIZON IS THE INCUMBENT LOCAL EXCHANGE IN 180 OF THEM SO 340 00:37:09.325 --> 00:37:16.132 IT'S NOT JUST THAT THERE IS A HOPEWELL LOCAL EXCHANGE THERE IS SOME 200 OF THEM AN 341 00:37:16.132 --> 00:37:20.900 WHEREVER THE PROPERTY IS SITUATED, THAT PERSONAL PROPERTY THAT IS SITUATED, THE LEGISLATURE 342 00:37:20.900 --> 00:37:25.457 CHOSE THE SCHEME AND THIS IS WHERE IT KIND OF TIES INTO DEREGULATION BECAUSE THERE WAS 343 00:37:25.457 --> 00:37:32.010 A SHUFFLE WITH THE C B T TAX AND THIS OTHER TAX, THE MUNICIPALITY AS THE TAXING STATUTES 344 00:37:32.010 --> 00:37:38.040 WERE CHANGING AND PLAYING MUSICAL CHAIRS, IT WAS THE MUNICIPALITY THAT WAS LOSING THE 345 00:37:38.040 --> 00:37:47.178 OPPORTUNITY TO GET REVENUE TO BLANK. THE COMPROMISE AS I UNDERSTOOD IT WAS 346 00:37:47.178 --> 00:37:52.513 THEY WILL AT LEAST GET THIS TAX FOR THE TELECOMMUNICATIONS INDUSTRY BECAUSE IT WAS 347 00:37:52.513 --> 00:37:59.097 AT&T THROUGH THE DEREGULATION THAT WOUND UP PAYING THE KRB T TAX BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T 348 00:37:59.097 --> 00:38:05.043 A LOCAL KRAR YER ANYMORE SO THIS WAS HOW THE LEGISLATURE ALLOWED FOR THE MUNICIPALITIES 349 00:38:05.043 --> 00:38:12.339 TO CONTINUE TO RECEIVE TAXING REVENUE. I THINK THAT ANSWERS YOUR QUESTION. AND, 350 00:38:12.339 --> 00:38:20.434 YES, IT MATTERS BECAUSE THERE IS IN -- I WILL JUST USE HOPEWELL AS AN EXAMPLE, COUNSEL 351 00:38:20.434 --> 00:38:26.286 SAID VERIZON IS A GOOD CITIZEN BECAUSE THEY PAY THEIR TAXES. WELL, THE TRUTH IS AS THIS 352 00:38:26.286 --> 00:38:32.776 COURT KNOWS YOU DON'T HAVE STANDING TO FILE A TAX APPEAL UNLESS YOU FILE YOUR TAXES. 353 00:38:32.776 --> 00:38:39.454 THEY PAID FROM 2009 THROUGH -- BECAUSE THAT'S THE ONLY WAY THEY GET STANDING TO CHALLENGE 354 00:38:39.454 --> 00:38:47.188 THE TAX. AND THAT MONEY, IF THIS COURT WAS TO CHANGE THE RULES OF THE FWAM, CHANGE THE 355 00:38:47.188 --> 00:38:53.899 LONG HELD UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT A LOCAL TELEPHONE EXCHANGE IS, IT WOULD ALLOW VERIZON 356 00:38:53.899 --> 00:39:01.395 TO GET OUT OF THE TAX THAT THEY OTHERWISE OWE. IT MATTERS A GREAT DEAL. IT MATTERS 357 00:39:01.395 --> 00:39:08.893 CERTAINLY A COMBRAT DEAL TO MY CLIENT. IT DOES. I THINK -- I HOPE I ANSWERED. 358 00:39:08.893 --> 00:39:12.736 JUSTICE SOLOMON: OH, NO, YOU DID. YOU DID. JUSTICE PIERRE-LOUIS: WHAT 359 00:39:12.736 --> 00:39:19.187 IS YOUR RESPONSE TO COUNSEL'S ARGUMENT THAT NOT ONLY DID DEREGULATION CHANGE THE CLUSTERS 360 00:39:19.187 --> 00:39:27.734 OF THE GEOGRAPHICAL AREA, BUT SO DID TECHNOLOGY SO THAT NOW THERE ARE NUMBERS WELL OUTSIDE 361 00:39:27.734 --> 00:39:35.162 THE HOPEWELL AREA THAT HAVE THE NPA AN NXX THAT WAS NOT THE CASE IN PRIOR YEARS? 362 00:39:35.162 --> 00:39:38.991 JOSEPH C. TAURIELLO: TWO THINGS. FIRST IT WAS NEVER THE CASE THAT LOCAL 363 00:39:38.991 --> 00:39:45.541 EXCHANGE WAS DIVIDED BY NPA, NXX CODES, DESPITE COUNSEL'S STATEMENT TODAY THAT THAT WAS 364 00:39:45.541 --> 00:39:52.751 THE INDUSTRY STANDARD AND LONG HELD, WHAT IS CONSPICUOUSLY ABSENT IS A SINGLE DOCUMENT 365 00:39:52.751 --> 00:39:57.890 THAT POENTS TO THAT FACT. WHAT THERE IS IS AN INUNDATION OF DOCUMENTS THAT SHOW THAT 366 00:39:57.890 --> 00:40:03.268 A LOCAL EXCHANGE IS AS DEFINED IN THEIR PRODUCT GUIDE WHICH IS BY TERRITORIAL BOUNDARIES. 367 00:40:03.268 --> 00:40:09.073 WHAT VERIZON HAS DONE IS THEY HAVE CONFLATED THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A RATE 368 00:40:09.073 --> 00:40:16.605 CENTER AND A LOCAL EXCHANGE. AND A RATE CENTER IS NOT A GEOGRAPHICAL. IT'S ON A MAP. 369 00:40:16.605 --> 00:40:21.741 IT'S JUST A POINT. AND A RATE CENTER, WHICH IS BECOMING LESS IMPORTANT TODAY BECAUSE 370 00:40:21.741 --> 00:40:27.714 OF THE TYPES OF TELEPHONE PLANS WE HAVE, BUT BACK IN THE DAY, IT WAS YOU WOULD BE CHARGED 371 00:40:27.714 --> 00:40:35.845 A -- FOR YOUR PHONE CALL BASED UPON THE MILEAGE BETWEEN THE TWO RATE CENTERS, POINT A 372 00:40:35.845 --> 00:40:42.290 TO POINT B, AGAIN THAT IS BECOMING LESS RELEVANT TODAY, BUT THAT IS THE -- THE NPA-NXXES 373 00:40:42.290 --> 00:40:48.205 ARE ASSIGNED TO RATE CENTERS NOT TO AN EXCHANGE SO WHAT THERE HAS BEEN IN MY OPINION IS 374 00:40:48.205 --> 00:40:55.383 A CON FLAKES BETWEEN THOSE TWO DOCUMENTS EVEN THOUGH THEIR EXPERT, MR. WEST CONCEDED ON 375 00:40:55.383 --> 00:41:00.587 CROSS-EXAMINATION THAT THEY ARE TWO SEPARATE THINGS. JUSTICE WAINER APTER: 376 00:41:00.587 --> 00:41:08.584 EXCEPT I THINK COUNSEL SAID THAT THE WAY THE MAP WAS CREATED IN 1974 WAS BY LOOKING, OKAY, 377 00:41:08.584 --> 00:41:15.442 WHERE ARE ALL THE NPA-NXX CODES ASSOCIATED WITH THE HOPEWELL RATE CENTER AND NOW LET'S 378 00:41:15.442 --> 00:41:20.465 CREATE A MAP WHERE ALL THOSE CODES WERE INSIDE OF IT AN THEN WE WILL DO THE SAME THING 379 00:41:20.465 --> 00:41:25.875 WITH THE OTHER 208 LOCAL EXCHANGES. IT SEEMS LIKE YOU'RE CONTESTING THAT, 380 00:41:25.875 --> 00:41:29.659 BUT THEN HOW WAS THE MAP CREATED? JOSEPH C. TAURIELLO: I WILL ANSWER YOUR 381 00:41:29.659 --> 00:41:34.520 QUESTION THIS WAY. WHAT COUNSEL SAID TODAY IS NOT SUPPORTED IN THE RECORD BELOW. THERE WAS 382 00:41:34.520 --> 00:41:41.305 NO TESTIMONY REGARDING THAT THAT I AM AWARE OF THAT THAT WAS HOW THE MAP WAS CREATED. 383 00:41:41.305 --> 00:41:44.139 JUSTICE WAINER APTER: HOW WAS THE MAP CREATED? JOSEPH C. 384 00:41:44.139 --> 00:41:48.103 TAURIELLO: I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT. I DON'T KNOW. IT WAS NOT AN ISSUE AT EITHER 385 00:41:48.103 --> 00:41:52.730 THE TRIAL OR APPELLATE LEL. THE ISSUE WAS WHETHER OR NOT THE LOCAL EXCHANGE IS DEFINED 386 00:41:52.730 --> 00:41:59.649 BY THE MAPS THAT WERE CREATED BY VERIZON. NO ONE DISPUTED THAT THEY WERE CREATED, BUT 387 00:41:59.649 --> 00:42:05.557 TO SUGGEST THAT SOMEHOW THAT DID NOT REPRESENT WHAT THE UNDERSTANDING WAS IS JUST FACTUALLY 388 00:42:05.557 --> 00:42:12.418 NOT CORRECT. ESPECIALLY AT THE TIME WHEN THE LEGISLATURE ADOPTED THE STATUTE. 389 00:42:12.418 --> 00:42:17.987 I ALSO JUST WANTED TO COMMENT. I DIDN'T WANT TO INTERRUPT COUNSEL ON HER OPENING, BUT 390 00:42:17.987 --> 00:42:23.729 SHE REFERENCED AN ADMINISTRATIVE CODE SECTION AND I DOUBLE CHECKED THE BRIEFS THAT WERE 391 00:42:23.729 --> 00:42:29.641 SUBMITTED. L UNLESS I AM MISSING IT. I DON'T SEE THAT THAT WAS IN THE BRIEFS I DON'T KNOW 392 00:42:29.641 --> 00:42:33.834 WHAT THAT SECTION IS. I JUST WANT THE COURT TO KNOW THAT THE REASON I AM NOT PREPARED 393 00:42:33.834 --> 00:42:38.943 TO ADDRESS IT IS IT WAS NOT RAISED AT THE TRIAL LEVEL, THE APPELLATE LEVEL AN NOT RAISED 394 00:42:38.943 --> 00:42:43.193 IN THE BRIEFS SUBMITTED TO THIS COURT SO I APOLOGIZE I AM NOT PREPARED TO ADDRESS THAT. 395 00:42:43.193 --> 00:42:47.184 SFLFRNLTS OTHER QUESTIONS ANYONE? THANK YOU, COUNSEL. JOSEPH C. 396 00:42:47.184 --> 00:42:50.918 TAURIELLO: THANK YOU SFLFRNLTS MS. MANTELL, BRIEF REBUTTAL? HAD. NATALIE H. 397 00:42:50.918 --> 00:43:45.248 MANTELL: YES, YOUR HONOR. YOUR HONOR, JUST A FEW POINTS. I WOULD 398 00:43:45.248 --> 00:43:52.765 LIKE TO DIRECT THE COURT TO DAY 1 OF THE TRIAL TRANSCRIPT WHERE MR. WEST, VERIZON'S WITNESS, 399 00:43:52.765 --> 00:44:01.868 PAGE 73 TESTIFIED THAT THE MAP WAS BASED UPON THE ASSIGNED NPA-NXX CODES AND THE CUSTOMER'S 400 00:44:01.868 --> 00:44:11.757 LOCATIONS IN 1974. ALSO, AT PAGE 5 OF VERIZON'S REPLY BRIEF IN THIS MATTER 401 00:44:11.757 --> 00:44:21.482 ON THE PETITION, WE CITE THE NEW JERSEY ADMINISTRATIVE CODE SECTION 14: 14-3.1 IN 402 00:44:21.482 --> 00:44:35.269 FOOTNOTE 3. AND I WOULD LIKE TO ADDRESS A COUPLE OF OTHER POENTS IN COUNSEL'S ARGUMENT. 403 00:44:35.269 --> 00:44:44.633 THE FIRST BEING THAT COUNSEL SAID THAT THE -- WHEN THE TAXING STRUCTURE OR 404 00:44:44.633 --> 00:44:52.418 WHEN THE TAXING STATUTES WERE ALL RESTRUCTURED HIS UNDERSTANDING WAS THAT THE BP TT WAS 405 00:44:52.418 --> 00:44:59.268 SUPPOSED TO ESSENTIALLY POLICE THE GRAPH TAX FOR THE MUNICIPALITIES; THAT'S NOT ACCURATE. 406 00:44:59.268 --> 00:45:10.140 IN THE ASSEMBLY STATEMENT CLOP ESSENTIALLY REPLACE THE CLOP. 407 00:45:10.140 --> 00:45:15.786 THE ASSEMBLY POLICY AND REGULATORY OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE STATEMENT WHICH IS AVAILABLE IN 408 00:45:15.786 --> 00:45:28.497 THE RECORD AT VERIZON'S REPLY APPENDIX IN THE APPELLATE DIVISION, P R A 0094 TO 96. IT 409 00:45:28.497 --> 00:45:34.622 DESCRIBES THE FACT THAT THE GROSS RECEIPTS AN FRANCHISE TAX WAS BEING ELIMINATED BUT IT 410 00:45:34.622 --> 00:45:40.578 WAS BEING REPLACED BY THE CORPORATION BUSINESS TAX AND THERE WAS A SPRT FUND THAT WAS 411 00:45:40.578 --> 00:45:50.069 BEING CREATED WHICH WOULD REPLACE THE REVENUE FROM THE GRAPH TAX. THE BPT WAS NOT INTENDED 412 00:45:50.069 --> 00:45:56.154 IN ANY WAY TO REPLACE THE REVENUE FROM MUNICIPALITIES; THAT WAS INTENDED TO BE 413 00:45:56.154 --> 00:46:04.583 REPLACED BY THE CORPORATION BUSINESS TAX AND THEN THE STATE FUND THAT WAS CREATED. 414 00:46:04.583 --> 00:46:13.713 ALSO, WITH RESPECT TO WHETHER OR NOT THE TAX WOULD STILL BE BEING PAID BY VERIZON IF THE 415 00:46:13.713 --> 00:46:27.205 MAPS WERE USED, THEY WOULD NOT. THE IN FLUKS OF COMPETITION HAS CREATED A SITUATION WHERE 416 00:46:27.205 --> 00:46:37.034 NOW IN MANY, MANY OF THE LP Es, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THE MAPS ARE USED OR THE NPA-NXX 417 00:46:37.034 --> 00:46:44.168 CODES HAVE USED VERIZON'S MARKET SHARE HAS FALLEN BELOW 51 PERCENT. SPECIFICALLY 418 00:46:44.168 --> 00:46:49.011 IN HOPEWELL THE REASON HOPEWELL CONTINUES TO PAY THE TAX IS BECAUSE HOPEWELL'S TAX ASSESSOR 419 00:46:49.011 --> 00:47:00.612 CONTINUES TO RELY ON THE 2008 FORM P P-10 THAT WAS SUBMITTED TO ISSUE THE TAX YEAR AFTER 420 00:47:00.612 --> 00:47:11.187 YEAR AFTER YEAR. THEY HAVE NOT -- THEY HAVE NOT DONE ANYTHING TO BRING THAT CURRENT. 421 00:47:11.187 --> 00:47:16.240 JUSTICE SOLOMON: THAT'S NOT OUR ISSUE; THAT'S NOT WHAT HERE. 422 00:47:16.240 --> 00:47:19.575 NATALIE H. MANTELL: IT IS NOT. I WAS JUST RESPONDING TO WHAT COUNSEL SAID, YOUR HONOR. 423 00:47:19.575 --> 00:47:26.625 BUT TO THAT POINT, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THE NPA-NXX CODES OR THE MAPs ARE 424 00:47:26.625 --> 00:47:37.098 USED, IN MANY, MANY OF THE JURISDICTIONS, THERE IS NO TAX BECAUSE -- VERIZON NO LONGER 425 00:47:37.098 --> 00:47:47.147 HAS 51 PERCENT. FINALLY, YOUR HONOR, IN 1997 WHEN THIS STATUTE WAS ENACTED 426 00:47:47.147 --> 00:47:53.760 THE LEGISLATURE IS PRESUMED TO UNDERSTAND INDUSTRY TERMINOLOGY WHEN IT USES AN INDUSTRY 427 00:47:53.760 --> 00:48:00.493 TERM OF ART IN ITS STATUTE AT THAT TIME VERIZON WAS THE INDUSTRY. IT WAS NEW JERSEY BELL 428 00:48:00.493 --> 00:48:07.321 THEN, BUT THERE WAS A MONOPOLY. VERIZON WAS THE INDUSTRY WHEN THIS STATUTE WAS ENACTED 429 00:48:07.321 --> 00:48:14.539 AND ITS DEFINITION THAT IT HAS USED SINCE THAT TIME THROUGH TODAY IS WHAT LOCAL TELEPHONE 430 00:48:14.539 --> 00:48:18.460 EXCHANGE MEANS. THE COURT: THANK YOU, COUNSEL. THANK YOU TO 431 00:48:18.460 --> 00:48:21.460 BOTH COUNSEL, WE WILL TAKE THE MATTER UN ADVISEMENT.